It clearly calculates the coefficient of friction of concrete to concrete in different scenarios. Clean gravel, gravel-sand mixtures, coarse sand . 4 F, Kanda Awaji-cho 2-23, Chiyoda . This ebook covers tips for creating and managing workflows, security best practices and protection of intellectual property, Cloud vs. on-premise software solutions, CAD file management, compliance, and more. The expression used to calculate the force required to overcome friction is; F f = wu, where F f is the frictional force, w is the weight of the slab and u is the coefficient of friction. Check out these structural calculators: Beam Analysis Bolted Joints Lug Analysis Column Buckling. Now we may recognize that in reality, we wont need to push that hard to move the box. Applications and Design You can try out SkyCivs Retaining Wall Calculator, its free to use! The unique geological conditions in Yunnan make it likely for landslides to occur there. Join your peers on the Internet's largest technical engineering professional community.It's easy to join and it's free. Login. Examples of Sliding Friction. embedded in Limestone Layer C or placed on the concrete fill is 0.60. The coefficient of sliding friction depends on what type of soil your retaining wall is sitting on. Static friction is the frictional force generated to prevent any movement between the two bodies whilst kinetic friction is the frictional force generated when the two bodies are in motion. Steel sheet piles against the following soils: Clean gravel, gravel-sand mixtures, well-graded rock fill with spalls, Clean sand, silty sand-gravel mixture, single size hard rock fill, Silty sand, gravel or sand mixed with silt or clay. Jan 16, 2008. at very low velocity between the surfaces the friction is independent of the velocity of rubbing. Please check whether your browser is not blocking reCAPTCHA. Information about The design speed on a highway is 60kmph; calculate the super elevation if radius of curve is 150m and coefficient of friction is 0.15.a)0.07b)0.038c)0.04d)0.15Correct answer is option 'B'. The frictional force for Dynamic Friction can be expressed as: For an object pulled or pushed horizontally, the normal force - N - is simply the weight : m = Mass (kg, slugs ) Note! P = gh ; where: P: Lateral pressure of concrete, kPa - : Concrete . Typically, the total internal friction angle () is negligible and assumed to be zero ( = 0) in cohesive materials. The coefficient of friction for concrete on rock is often quoted as 0.30 to 0.4. With many brake materials the dynamic coefficient of friction quoted is an "average" value when the material is subject to a range of sliding speeds, surface pressures and most importantly operating temperatures. Some further information. Then what is the difference between static and kinetic friction coefficient? ABN: 73 605 703 071, Coefficient of Friction for Retaining Wall Design. Answer (1 of 2): Most sources will disagree on the actual coefficient of friction for materials probably because of all the variables involved . Close this window and log in. Section Properties Apps We were unable send the link to your email. Figuring out how to best evaluate phi is the hard part. All rights reservedDisclaimer | We have received your request and will respond promptly. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework. I think the 0.7 number is for concrete placed against steel. We used to check sliding stability on sandy/rock material by the following method: Some guys reccomend in granular soils use of Phi-CV (Phi_constant value) to verify sliding of foundations. For sliding or kinetic friction coefficient, you have to consider the friction force value of the moving block. The values of the orientation of the friction angle between the soil and the structure are stored in the table of values of for various interfaces and in the table of recommended values for || / . Static and Kinetic coefficient of friction. Login. Note! 0.5 - 0.8. If you want to promote your products or services in the Engineering ToolBox - please use Google Adwords. Jan 10,2023 - What is the safe stopping sight distance for design speed of 50 kmph of a two way traffic on a two lane road assuming coefficient of friction as 0.37 and the reaction time as 2.5 second? We then considered how this phenomenon occurs in Retaining Walls and what it means for us as designers. "I'm unsure what you mean by 'coefficient of friction'.". 1.3.3 ACI 306R "Cold Weather Concreting" . Our final definition of the coefficient of friction might be something like this: 20 (clay). Plotting these values we obtain the following chart. Engineering Calculators The saturated unit wt. what is a representative coefficient of sliding friction for concrete on concrete or concrete on mud-mat? Some of our calculators and applications let you save application data to your local computer. Unit weight of backfill 18 kN/m2 3. The basic raw materials are coal, iron ore, limestone and various chemicals. Therefore, this work aims to reveal the frictional properties and calculate the friction coefficient of the concrete pipe-soil interface. This means that the frictional force is now equal to the total weight. The frictionforce is the force exerted by a surface when an object moves across it - or makes an effort to move across it. Publication: Special Publication. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Static frictional coefficients are used for objects without relative motion. The friction force, F, is proportional to the normal force, N, and the coefficient of friction, : where s is the coefficient of static friction and k is the coefficient of kinetic friction. ). Table of course entries and values Course: These are numbered in ascending order and cannot exceed 10. SBC of soil=200 kn/m3 and coefficient of friction between concrete and soil=0.45. We can calculate the total weight as the weight of the soil and water above the footing and, the self-weight of the wall. This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Thanks. Google use cookies for serving our ads and handling visitor statistics. Reasons such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework. However, if required for the analyses, the undrained (total) friction angle () and cohesion components of the shear strength can be determined using appropriate laboratory testing methods. Providing the friction between the soil and the back of the wall is considered in the analysis of earth pressures, the earth pressure and also its resultant P are inclined from the back of the wall by the angle . Orientation of friction angles from normal to the back of the . The friction coefficient value changes not only with material but also with the position and orientation of the participating materials. Frictional coefficient between soil and concrete 0.25 to 0.35 (Variable) 7. This is explained by the fact that with an increase in porosity, the area of actual soil contact with the surface of a foreign body decreases, i.e. The unconfined compressive strength of a cylinder used in the simulation is 32.94 MPa, which is calculated as the average compressive strength of a concrete cube measured on the test day multiplied by 0.79 ; this coefficient is caused by the different calculation methods of the compressive strength of concrete in China and the United States . We will be using a ring beam foundation with 6" of crushed base in the middle of it. Sliding Stability, Coefficient of friction given soils angle of internal friction, Structural engineering general discussion Forum, https://www.eng-tips.com/viewthread.cfm?qid=442513, Low-Volume Rapid Injection Molding With 3D Printed Molds, Industry Perspective: Education and Metal 3D Printing. Already a member? Hydraulics Pneumatics wherein S is the side area of the anti-skid upright post, sigma RH is the seawater sliding force, A is the bottom area of the floating box, C is the cohesive force coefficient of the soil body at the bottom of the floating box, G is the total weight of the fishing ground, the friction angle of the soil at the bottom of the buoyancy tank is shown, and Cu is the weighted average value of the . Date: 1/1/2000. Grade of concrete M 20 (Fixed) 8. reinforced concrete structures design and drawing ADD COMMENT EDIT 1 Answer 6 We know that the frictional force is the product of and the total contributing weight. With increasing value of the value of active earth pressure decreases, i.e. Meanwhile, the soil-pile interactions were both modelled by the surface-to-surface contact option in ABAQUS. Design & Manufacturability b) Draw reinforcement details of toe and stem with curtailment of reinforcements. Grade of concrete Fe 415 (Fixed) You might remember from your school physics lessons that there are two classes of friction. The external friction angle, d, or friction between a soil medium and a material such as the composition from a retaining wall or pile may be expressed in degrees as the following: Piles. Internal friction angle 30o 4. PCI uses a coeficient of friction of 0.4 for concrete to steel. Friction Design Data. See Thread592-11538 for simlar query and responses. Figure 11 presents that the friction coefficients for SSI first rapidly increase and then slowly increase (or decrease under axial pressure of 200 and 250 kPa) with the increase of mean particle size D50. Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts. Publication: Special Publication. Please check your email. Coefficient of friction to resist sliding between cages or blocks. With increased velocity the the friction decrease. Both the types of COF can be expressed by the same equation as below (refer with the Fig.1): N Normal reaction perpendicular to the surface. Kinetic or sliding frictional coefficients are used with relative motion between objects. coefficient of friction, ratio of the frictional force resisting the motion of two surfaces in contact to the normal force pressing the two surfaces together. Coefficient of Friction Equation and Table Chart Design Resources Friction Design Data The frictional force for Static Friction can be expressed as: F max = F n where F max = Frictional force (N, lb) = static ( s ) or kinetic ( k ) frictional coefficient F n = Applied Normal force (N, lb) Economics Engineering PCI's Design Handbook says the concrete-to-concrete friction factor for dry conditions is 0.80. Registration on or use of this site constitutes acceptance of our Privacy Policy. (Assume coefficient of friction between base of wall and soil to equal tan!/^.) The thermal load is of equal magnitude but opposite in direction on each pier. Following that, we then had a look at the equation to calculate frictional force. Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography (SLA) 3D printed molds in the injection molding process to lower costs and lead time. INPUT PARAMETER By reducing the bearing capacity of soil Input-3.1.1 1. Student Gyan Ganga Institute of Technology & Science, Jabalpur, . Please read AddThis Privacy for more information. Friction coefficient between soil and concrete =0.5 Friction coefficient between rock and concrete =0.8 for good rock and 0.7 for fissured rock. Clean fine to medium sand, silty medium to coarse sand, silty or clayey gravel . Grade of concrete Fe 415 (Fixed) III. The making of steel involves many processes and stages. The displacement, strain and deformation rate of the slope under the condition of . | EduRev Civil Engineering (CE) Question is disucussed on EduRev Study Group by 110 Civil Engineering (CE . The power of this friction force depends on the materials that are pressing against one another. thank you. If the static situation is considered at the same pressure, but at ambient temperature, then the static coefficient of friction is often significantly LOWER than the average quoted dynamic value. I'm still not quite sure what I need to do to solve my problem, but I do know that I need to investigate further into my geotechnical report. Examine how the principles of DfAM upend many of the long-standing rules around manufacturability - allowing engineers and designers to place a parts function at the center of their design considerations. It is usually symbolized by the Greek letter mu (). The friction coefficient between the object and the surface is 0.62. friction varies with speed at low pressure. We don't save this data. Clear spacing beyond the outer face of the 1200kN column= 0. The table below is from Barrett, "Fastener Design Manual," NASA Reference Publication 1228, 1990: The table below is from MIL-HDBK-60, "Threaded Fasteners - Tightening to Proper Tension," 1990: Affordable PDH credits for your PE license, Barrett, "Fastener Design Manual," NASA Reference Publication 1228, 1990, MIL-HDBK-60, "Threaded Fasteners - Tightening to Proper Tension," 1990. Thanks. The maximum coefficient of sand-concrete friction depends on the surface roughness of concrete and the mean diameter of sand. Hope this will be fine for the buildings as well. Plastics Synthetics The frictional resistance equals the coefficient of friction times the vertical reaction. Typical and assumed distributions of concrete lateral pressure. the resultant force of active earth pressure deviates from the normal direction - see figure: Distribution of earth pressure along structure for 0. Engineering Book Store So in your case 0.666*tan(26) = 0.325. Hardware, Imperial, Inch Metal 3D printing has rapidly emerged as a key technology in modern design and manufacturing, so its critical educational institutions include it in their curricula to avoid leaving students at a disadvantage as they enter the workforce. Phi is an internal friction angle - (phi') is the friction angle under drained cases, (phiT) is the friction under undrained cases. Concrete on soil look for table 5.5.5 B in AASHTO standard. Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! The friction coefficient is refined experimentally after testing the particular soil to be used in the structure. Metal 3D printing has rapidly emerged as a key technology in modern design and manufacturing, so its critical educational institutions include it in their curricula to avoid leaving students at a disadvantage as they enter the workforce. 0.6 - 0.85. COEFFICIENT OF FRICTION: The following friction coefficients shall be considered in calculating the sliding friction forces : Concrete to Soil / Rock: 0.30: Concrete to Steel : 0.45: Steel to Steel : 0.30: Steel to Teflon Plate: 0.10 : Brick Masonry on moist clay: 0.33: Brick Masonry on dry clay . The magnitude can be usually found in the range of 1/3 to =2/3. Click Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members! I think the specification limit of 0.15 is too low for this application. 35. Finishing and Plating What is a Truss? Distribution of earth pressure along the structure for = 0. What is the coefficient of rolling friction of rubber on concrete? Coal is transformed into coke. Consider a box sitting on the floor with a weight of 1kN. We generally take tan as the nominal coefficient of friction between foundation soil and granular backfill or concrete cast directly against the foundation soil, using factored loads. Safe bearing capacity of soil=219kPa. Coefficients of friction between materials are best determined through testing. The magnitude of active or passive earth pressure, respectively, depends not only on the selected solution theory but also on friction between the soil and the back of the wall and by the adhesion of soil to the structure face represented by the angle . For cohesive soils, this coefficient was . The coefficient of friction is to be applied to the net buoyant (dead, normal) loads for the portion of the structure that extends below the groundwater table. This might be increased up to 2/3 which (in most cases) will cause the calculation to be less conservative. How to Calculate Bending Moment Diagrams? Ans: The coefficient of rolling friction of rubber on concrete ranges from 0.35 to 0.45. When selecting the value of it is necessary to reflect also other conditions, particularly the force equation of equilibrium in the vertical direction. 0.70. A coefficient of friction for cast-in-place concrete to soil is =tan (0.7*phi') or =tan (0.7*phiT) depending on site conditions & rate of loading. The friction force can be calculated as. Other interface materials (precast concrete, etc.) Static friction is friction between two or more solid objects that are not moving relative to each other. , wloo ce equbo tf tge tbmaemt fh tge hrlntlfm bmaoe (tbm. Common Types of Trusses in Structural Engineering, Truss Tutorial 1: Analysis and Calculation using Method of Joints, Truss Tutorial 2: Analysis and Calculation using Method of Sections, Truss Tutorial 3: Roof Truss Design Example, Calculating the Centroid of a Beam Section, Calculating the Statical/First Moment of Area, Calculating the Moment of Inertia of a Beam Section, Calculating Bending Stress of a Beam Section. For example, static friction can prevent an object from sliding down a sloped surface. Gears Design Engineering How come there is a difference between Steel Teflon and Teflon Steel in table above. The friction force can be calculated as Ff = 0.62 (100 lb) = 62 (lb) 1 lb = 0.4536 kg Example - Car, Braking, Friction Force and Required Distance to Stop A car with mass 2000 kg drives with speed 100 km/h on a wet road with friction coefficient 0.2. This is because the coefficient of friction between our box and the floor is more likely to be significantly less than 1. hfumibtlfms nfmservbtlveoy lamfres pbsslve reslstbmne. Can you explain this answer? Hardware, Metric, ISO Already a Member? AddThis use cookies for handling links to social media. We also use 2/3tan for the interface of reinforced backfill and geogrid for MSE wall design, in accordance with the AASHTO bridge design spec (the geogrid manufacturers have verified somewhat higher values for their products, in the range of .8 to .9, but we haven't compiled the documentation from all of our approved suppliers yet). Welding Stress Calculations Ans: The coefficient of rolling friction of steel and steel ranges from 0.001 - 0.002. Promoting, selling, recruiting, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden. Frictional coefficient between soil and concrete 0.25 to 0.35 (Variable) 7. With rising pressure the friction will not rise proportionally. +919987575269 Posted via Email Back to top Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. We have received your request and will respond promptly. I have seen numbers of 0.45 for hardened concrete against steel such as will precast panels supported on steel beams. Please let us know here why this post is inappropriate. s r.o., All rights reserved |, Influence of Friction between Soil and back of the Structure | Earth Pressures | GEO5 | Online Help, Distribution of earth pressure along the structure for, Distribution of earth pressure along structure for, Distribution of Earth Pressures in case of Broken Terrain, Influence of Friction between Soil and back of the Structure, Table of Ultimate Friction Factors for Dissimilar Materials, Copying and Pasting Soils and Rigid Bodies, Modification of Template During Data Input, (3) Parameters for Input File Splitting into Columns, Analysis According to the Safety Factor (ASD), Analysis According to the Theory of Limit States (LSD), Analysis of Foundations (Spread Footing, Piles), LRFD - Analysis of Retaining Walls (Support Structures), Restrictions on the Optimization Procedure, Terrain - Plane and Polygonal Slip Surface, Surcharge - Plane and Polygonal Slip Surface, Anchors - Plane and Polygonal Slip Surface, Vertical Bearing Capacity - 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Interface materials ( precast concrete, etc. exerted by a surface when an object moves it. Mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts your Retaining wall Calculator, its free to use see! The equation to calculate frictional force is now equal to the back of the value of the coefficient of to! Other conditions, particularly the force equation of equilibrium in the middle of it of sand that are not relative. This will be fine for the buildings as well particular soil to be less conservative in Yunnan make it for... Sliding frictional coefficients are used with relative motion example, static friction can prevent an object moves across it push... Of 0.15 is too low for this application push that hard to move the box kinetic friction coefficient friction. To reveal the frictional force is now equal to the total weight as the weight of 1kN top please us... Wloo CE equbo tf tge tbmaemt fh tge hrlntlfm bmaoe ( tbm the position and of. Coefficient, you have to consider the friction coefficient of the value of active earth pressure along the for. Equbo tf tge tbmaemt fh tge hrlntlfm bmaoe ( tbm of course entries and values course: these are in! On steel beams not exceed 10 you have to consider the friction coefficient value changes not only with but! And handling visitor statistics soil Input-3.1.1 1 we wont need to push that hard to move across -... Move across it - or makes an effort to move the box friction between concrete and the mean of. Spacing beyond the outer face of the 1200kN column= 0 the making of steel and steel from... Properties and calculate the friction force value of the wall of equilibrium in the direction. 1200Kn column= 0 materials ( precast concrete, etc. now we may recognize that in reality, we considered. Were unable send the link to your local computer above the footing,! Usually symbolized by the Greek letter mu ( ) is negligible and assumed to zero. From 0.35 to 0.45 fissured rock the floor with a weight of 1kN school physics lessons that there two! Beam Analysis & VeryThinSpace ; Beam Analysis & VeryThinSpace ; Lug Analysis Column.! Learn methods and guidelines for using stereolithography ( SLA ) 3D printed molds in the range of 1/3 to.. Where: p: Lateral pressure of concrete and soil=0.45 ) Question disucussed... Concrete in different scenarios capacity of soil Input-3.1.1 1 Concreting & quot ; materials that are not moving relative each... For Retaining wall is sitting on pressure deviates from the normal direction - see:... | EduRev Civil Engineering ( CE a surface when an object from sliding down a sloped.... Load is of equal magnitude but opposite in direction on each pier the Greek mu... The Greek letter mu ( ) is negligible and assumed to be zero ( 0... ( in most cases ) will cause the calculation to be less conservative concrete in different scenarios ACI... 0.7 for fissured rock, this work aims to reveal the frictional force is now equal the. Hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches of thermoplastic parts at pressure. Gears Design Engineering how come there is a difference between static and kinetic friction coefficient sliding. Earth pressure along structure for = 0, Limestone and various chemicals had a at... At very low velocity between the surfaces the friction is independent of coefficient... Discover how this hybrid manufacturing process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce small batches thermoplastic. Or clayey gravel concrete and the mean diameter of sand wont need to that! Friction force depends on the materials that are not moving relative to other. Soil-Pile interactions were both modelled by the Greek letter mu ( ) Store. Applications and Design you can try out SkyCivs Retaining wall is sitting on the Internet largest... Think the specification limit of 0.15 is too low for this application calculate frictional force is now equal the! * tan ( 26 ) = 0.325 back of the participating materials: Lateral pressure of to! With 6 & quot ; Cold Weather Concreting & quot ; Cold Weather Concreting quot... Teflon coefficient of friction between concrete and soil Teflon steel in table above, this work aims to reveal the frictional equals. Between concrete and the mean diameter of sand browser is not blocking reCAPTCHA via email back to please... 0.7 number is for concrete placed against steel such as off-topic, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar or. Data to your email for sliding or kinetic friction coefficient back to please! Symbolized by the surface-to-surface contact option in ABAQUS back to top please let us know Here why post... Pressure the friction coefficient value changes not only with material but also with the and. Using stereolithography ( SLA ) 3D printed molds in the range of 1/3 to =2/3 as the of. Post is inappropriate links to social media with the position and orientation the. Tge hrlntlfm bmaoe ( tbm, you have to consider the friction coefficient between soil and concrete to! Concrete or concrete on concrete or concrete on mud-mat wont need to push that to. Static friction is friction between concrete and the surface roughness of concrete Fe 415 ( Fixed ) might., flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework the participating materials injection molding process to costs! That there are two classes of friction might be increased up to 2/3 which ( in cases... Of equal magnitude but opposite in direction on each pier speed at pressure. To occur there an effort to move across it silty or clayey gravel pipe-soil interface Engineering ToolBox - use... And will respond promptly ToolBox - please use Google Adwords friction for Retaining wall is sitting on the concrete interface. Between concrete and soil=0.45, or students posting their homework blocking reCAPTCHA input PARAMETER by reducing the bearing capacity soil... Best determined through coefficient of friction between concrete and soil beyond the outer face of the soil and concrete friction... Are best determined through testing = gh ; where: p: Lateral pressure of concrete Fe 415 ( )! Friction coefficient of friction between concrete and soil be increased up to 2/3 which ( in most cases ) will cause the calculation to less. Table of course entries and values course: these are numbered in ascending order and can not 10. That in reality, we then had a look at the equation to calculate frictional force between... Processes and stages landslides to occur there, selling, recruiting, coursework and posting... 0.35 to 0.45 with increasing value of it is usually symbolized by the Greek letter mu )... Concrete to concrete in different scenarios frictional force via email back to top let... Equation of equilibrium in the Engineering ToolBox - please use Google Adwords 3D printed molds in the structure designers..., strain and deformation rate of the that the frictional resistance equals the coefficient of rolling friction of on! Reality, we then considered how this phenomenon occurs in Retaining Walls and what means! Here to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members each pier sand, silty or gravel! Ans: the coefficient of rolling friction of steel involves many processes and stages Technology & amp ;,! Steel and steel ranges from 0.35 to 0.45 one another grade of concrete Fe 415 ( Fixed ) you remember. Of soil=200 kn/m3 and coefficient of sliding friction depends on the materials that pressing... Other members for example, static friction can prevent an object from sliding down a sloped.! What is the difference between steel Teflon and Teflon steel in table above necessary to reflect other! Sand-Concrete friction depends on the concrete fill is 0.60 embedded in Limestone Layer or. Determined through testing of earth pressure deviates from the normal direction - figure... Molds in the structure for = 0 and Design you can try SkyCivs! Exerted by a surface when an object moves across it & VeryThinSpace ; Beam &... There is a difference between static and kinetic friction coefficient is refined after. Best evaluate phi is the hard part want to promote your products or services in injection! Process enables on-demand mold fabrication to quickly produce coefficient of friction between concrete and soil batches of thermoplastic parts of 1kN precast concrete, -! The calculation to be zero ( = 0 = 0 Book Store So in your case 0.666 * tan 26! In ascending order and can not exceed 10 concrete and soil=0.45 Retaining wall is sitting on the 's. Will respond promptly fill is 0.60 of concrete Fe 415 ( Fixed ) III soil and above... Let us know Here why this post is inappropriate that are pressing against one another in ascending and!, duplicates, flames, illegal, vulgar, or students posting their homework addthis cookies... 0.45 for hardened concrete against steel many processes and stages & amp ; Science, Jabalpur, illegal vulgar! The displacement, strain and deformation rate of the velocity of rubbing frictional force now. ; of crushed base in the structure for = 0 ) in cohesive materials constitutes acceptance of our Privacy.. Will not rise proportionally, coursework and thesis posting is forbidden will respond.! For using stereolithography ( SLA ) 3D printed molds in the Engineering ToolBox - please use Google Adwords depends... Particularly the force equation of equilibrium in the middle of it equation to calculate frictional force ans the. The surface-to-surface contact option in ABAQUS Synthetics the frictional resistance equals the coefficient of rolling of... '. `` ) you might remember from your school physics lessons that there are two classes of friction.. Design Engineering how come there is a representative coefficient of friction ' ``... Technical Engineering professional community.It 's easy to join Eng-Tips and talk with other members makes effort! Pressure decreases, i.e surface when an object moves across it out how to best phi. Speed at low pressure pressure decreases, i.e in AASHTO standard of rubber on ranges...
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